The Magpie on 27/2/2008 at 23:49
I'm quoting out of sequence:
Quote Posted by Solabusca
I'm going to have to go on record as being vehemently AGAINST the suggestion that anyone other than the Keepers is tapping that particular magical forces.
That's interesting. I really do feel the same, you know. Even though I haven't played TDS yet.
Now, I've been around before for a discussion or five about the nature of magic, though. Here's what I've discovered. In the absence of empiric evidence, theories, however interesting, tend to carry less meaning. And in shared worlds, magic handling is best not examined too closely. It rarely stands up to scrutiny at all when sources from different authors are compared. For the purposes of this debate I consider the Thief Universe a shared world.
So much for the disclaimers. On to the fun!
Quote Posted by Solabusca
Well, watching how the mages, apparitions and priest cast in TDP, TG and TMA - I don't believe it's a 'glyph' gesture - it's more a focussing and directional gesture. Somatic, certainly, but not Glyph in nature.
Isn't it the exact same animation? It looks like you're right, and that the movement could well be the caster's magic, uh, gathering and energy funneling. OTOH it could be meant to be a horizontal rune-like air drawing.
Be that as it may, I strongly feel that the
representations of the Thief games' UIs should never be interpreted as more than stylized shadows of the "real" Thief Universe.
Hmh. I kind of did vex Platonic there, didn't I? Oh well, sorry about that.
My point is, I can't accept that point as evidence at all. I'm only going to be forced to pull in design issues as counter-arguments, and that spoils the mood. ;) Let's say that I still consider the possibility that they might be glyffin' away.
Quote Posted by Solabusca
Traditional fantasy magic in it's modern incarnation usually uses gestures and gobbeldygook words to portray the fact that SOMETHING UNNATURAL IS BEING DONE.
Sure. (And don't forget drawing circles on the floor.) Of course Thief conforms to the stereotype in this respect. Proves nothing one way or the other, IMO.
Now, let's look at the arguments for the other magic-users
*pauses*
(Wow. I never would have thought
that word was even usable IRL.)
*harrumph* Excuse me.
Now, let's look at the arguments for the other spellcasters
not using glyphs.
- The Keepers kept the glyphs a tight secret.Well, for all that... do we agree that the keyhole graffiti outside of the well house courtyard near Bafford's is a glyph?
- In TDP/TMA, glyph magic were the sole domain of the Keepers, and one can't envision a Pagan extracting power from the tracing of a the Trickster glyph.I believe the Trickster glyph, here hotlinked from the excellent (
http://thief.nov.ru/glyphs.htm):
Inline Image:
http://thief.nov.ru/Glyps/glyph089_s.gifcould be a Pagan magic glyph.
Example? ...well, I think it could be woodsie magic,
and glyph magic, the way the Eye
works in symbiosis with the chanting magic? of the Trickster to produce the 3rd Eye in the forehead ...it's the glyph being traced. See below, too.
- The runic writings of other groups are not magical Glyphs, but rather symbols.The Brotherhood of the Hand certainly uses special magical symbolism beyond that of the pictogram elemental symbols. I think MAG11.BMP, MAG12.BMP, and MAG15.BMP would qualify as glyphs, even with the notable stylistic differences from the Keeper system. (But I'm sure you're well aware of the differences between Keeper notations in the different gmes, too). I can readily see these markings as
instructions for somatic spellcasting, if you postulate that the Keeper Glyphs are the same, but using a different notation system.
(Side note: I think they very probably have one or more alphabets of their own in addition. The Semittic feel of the mage names tells me they've probably been transliterated. The reason Garrett can read some documents and books in the MageTowers at all must be because the Hand, at least the offshoot at the Towers, keeps picking up talented locals who couldn't read other alphabets but the one common in the City.)
Besides, I don't believe the PaganGlyph.bmp can be merely symbolic - it's too similar to the Keepers' notation, and it's on the back of a hand! I somehow feel we're dealing with more than the Pagan version of sXe here.
Mmm... or do you believe that the actual speciality of the Keepers is that they are the only faction to actually be aware of the exact magical properties of the Glyphs and possess the secrets of extracting their powers? Hm. I suddenly realized I should play TDS before attempting to discuss this. :o
--
L.
jtr7 on 27/2/2008 at 23:59
Whoa! Heh heh. A :thumb: to you, too.
And here I was going to joke that the swirling hand gestures were so the fingers could gather energy like Collector Towers, focus the energy between the hands, and allow the caster to throw the shaped energy in a corporeal form.:joke:
Thief: Plato's Shadows.
Oh, and I suppose it should be mentioned: We never discussed much about what came first, the Trickster symbol flower, or the Trickster symbol.
Inline Image:
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/9706/tricksterseyesymbolasplxl4.pngThe Magpie on 28/2/2008 at 00:04
*snicker* Excellent ideas, both.
jtr7 on 28/2/2008 at 21:09
And let me add this assurance: I think ruling options OUT can be as valuable as determining what is IN. I believe eliminating options is as chiseling away the excess material to reveal the shape within. Ruling both what is IN and OUT, ultimately defines what is IN. I have taken the comments in these speculation threads/posts and thrown them together to discover the new fanon possibilities that would grow pleasantly well from canon, and to discover which of them would poison the soil.
R Soul on 29/2/2008 at 15:34
I think that there are several levels of magic:
* The sort used by Hammerite/Mechanist priests and their undead counterparts, which summons symbols of themselves or what they stand for (e.g. skull represents death, or an elemental missile represents an element)
* The higher magic used by the Keepers and the Trickster (+ Viktoria and to a lesser extent, the pagans).
I suppose the mages could have a level in between the two I mentioned, since they can do more than just shoot missiles (remember the fire mage walking around in lava).
I also think that the Keepers may only have access to some parts of the higher level. I've never known them to create portals like the Trickter & co. seem able to, but they can hide things like their compound and all those little doorways in Thief 3.
Getting back to the original topic, if everyone became zombies, where would the mages get new mages from?
jtr7 on 29/2/2008 at 19:43
Since they, too, seem to have banned women from being a member of the Order of the Hand (unless the women and children have their own compound/village elsewhere), and like the other factions, seem to recruit or raise male children up and train them, it would appear that they would replenish their numbers the same general way as the other Orders.
From M16b13open: "Instructional treatise:
Listen well, oh novice, to the lore of your elders."
From M16b05water: "Until you have gained full
mastery over Water, return to
the Air, oh adept, and cherish
its protective succor."
M16b11tower: "Notice to all servants and guards,
Herein let it be known that the four towers of MageKeep are sacrosanct and thus off limits to the Commons. Only those Adept may enter. Guards may enter the tower foyers on business, but may not proceed upwards.
- Archmage Ibn Al Haroud"
The Magpie on 3/3/2008 at 04:57
Quote Posted by Solabusca in the thread "Who created zombies?"
So here it is, in all it's glory - the page from the Book of Ash!
Inline Image:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v739/solabusca/BOOKOFASHj.jpgNote the symbols around the man - the symbols for the elemental forces that we see on both the Elemental Keys and on the robes of the Hand Mages. A quick search will also come up with the text of Constantine's ritual.
In this image, I'm interested in the rest of the text, and the non-elemental glyphs or symbols or runes of whathaveyou. It's quite obviously alluding to a simplified Tree of Life, which is in itself quite interesting. A shame that the writing on the paths between the "Sefirot" is unintelligible. But the rest of the writing should be readable on the original image, only I don't have the TMA resources accessible ATM. What do you think?
:)
--
L.
jtr7 on 3/3/2008 at 05:57
Being the freak I am, I tried to use a common Greek font, with serifs, to see if it said anything, and then I realized many of the characters are so random and repetitive it couldn't be words. At first I was wondering if it would share anything with the Lovecraftian incantation text, M11B12:
" Agloras Coranth!
Kaglimorex thelorun asu
enlien Balmrorven agror.
Kalu Fendith? Kalu Kalid?
Akilno! Akilno Cleas!
Po walnarus veor.
Sigliop ulanis friopic,
ru phulin Gorax!
Hakannen bxs'hanthu
jiollux plenfanth, er
hujeris feroth.
Phir tun Ferunith!"
...but this is more pronounceable.:p
Plus, it shares the word "Coranth" with the unused conversation between Rosie, a prostitute, and Officer Coranth. Ah well.
The Magpie on 3/3/2008 at 12:17
Haha, that was quite effective using the verbal component only, too. ;)
Ah. Shame about the gibberish, but thanks for performing the experiment. I was misled by the use of the Greek letters Phi and Sigma in the title, see, which made me think that the rest of the Greek could be understandable, too. But aren't there more Latin-lettered (or mixed) phrases on the page, then?
Now, regarding that accompanying text: I wouldn't really call it Lovecraftian, myself, as I don't find the sounds anywhere near alien enough. OTOH I don't think it carries the air of a real artificial language, either, so I guess it's a specimen of the good old mumbojumbo class. Which means there most probably never has existed any original (English) text from which this would be a translation.
Oh, well. What do you make of the three columns, then? The right hand for Earth and Fire, the left hand for Air and Water, and the center for Darkness, Life, and Light?
And I wonder a little (but not much) about those drawn-in diagrams, too. :p
--
L.
jtr7 on 3/3/2008 at 18:02
Hmm. Two solid-seeming columns, and three lines, like strings, in the middle above (transparent?), with three solid-seeming rods, or a column of three subparts, in the middle below. Two-dimensional and three-dimensional?
