The Magpie on 6/3/2008 at 08:46
I feel that Balmoraal, as described, is kind of un-Thiefy. I have trouble describing why.
Also, I wondered a little how demon summoning would be connected to necromancy. Apart from obviously being black, evil, and bad mojo, blah blah.
But, hey, if we go by the hypothesis that the undead (or at least the Haunts and the Apparitions) are bodies of the formerly living, now possessed by evil spirits (or other extraplanar entities), I guess some of the most powerful spirits might have molded their own corporeal forms. With fashion accessoirs like wings and horns.
I think I can glimpse the shape of a theory here somewhere. Let's attempt a summary:
* Azaran and possibly the Necromancers were members of the Order of the Hand.
* The Order of the Hand concentrates as far as we know exclusively on pure elemental magic, whose symbols we can see on the two columns on either hand of the center column on the page from the Book of Ash.
* The Order of the Hand does not condone the work of Azaran.
* Current wisdom has it that undead may be created spontaneously from inherent "dark energy" (*Larris cringes, having studied physics*) residing or flowing through the world, after the fashion of other elemental powers crystallizing.
* The circles of Darkness, Light, and Life are found on the center column of the tree diagram. We are not sure exactly what kind of magic involves either of these three (vine arrows?). The possibility exists that they don't behave like the elemental forces at all.
* The tree diagram connects nodes by paths. Darkness is connected by Earth, Life, and Air.
* IF Azaran used to be an Earth Mage, he might have been looking into forbidden knowledge of how spirits can inhabit material forms, and even phase in and out (Apparitions - Air magic?).
The combination of disciplines could well be what's forbidden by the Order of the Hand, then. Not necessarily the abhorrent practice of animating corpses or summoning and binding extraplanar beings in itself. Merely mixing Darkness and/or Life into the purity of Earth could have been enough to excommunicate him.
OP: The question still is in the open.
--
L.
jtr7 on 6/3/2008 at 09:01
Just throwing this into the mix, for now:
M16b01azr: ""Mage Verlin,
Azaran’s interest in Necromancy has not diminished, despite his banishment. His study of the black arts continues at his spire in Dayport. We fear that his experiments with the reanimation of rats and insects will lead to more disturbing depths. He has even endeavored to recruit others on a crusade to recover The Book of Ash.
The Book of Ash must remain a thing of the past. Azaran’s ambition has blinded him to this, and he has proven himself a threat to our existence. His expulsion has only made him more resilient. It is the decision of the Inner Circle that greater measures be taken to correct this matter.
Archmage Corino"
Renault on 6/3/2008 at 18:30
Probably just a continuity error, but I always thought it was interesting how in the present (in Thief Gold), The Inner Circle is fearing that Azaran will go after the Book of Ash, but in Life of the Party, Azaran mentions recovering the Book of Ash "so many years ago" or something to that effect.
In any case, sounds like great material for an FM. :idea:
Edit: Had to go back and dig up the actual text...
page_0: "Whosoever finds this note, I bid thee farewell, for I no longer dwell in your domain of fetid flesh. My essence is now forever preserved in the Plane of Earth, beyond the reaches of fear and Fire. I owe my transcendence to the Book of Ash, that tome of legend I recovered so long ago from the sands of long forgotten kings. Within its pages lie the secrets of life, death...and undeath. The Hand forbade its study, for it drove so many into madness, but I have succeeded where others have failed. But be warned! The truth is hidden from the unworthy. Blacken thy heart, or face the prisoners of flesh.
-- Azaran the Cruel"
jtr7 on 6/3/2008 at 20:15
Thanks for pointing out another detail, Brethren.:)
Okay...we don't know how long the Keepers held onto any of the Talismans before distributing them. It could be inferred that the Hand Mages had showed up not too long before the cataclysm. Hell, they may have been involved, but there's no proof. I can think of a lot of fanon band-aid (fand-aid?) ideas, heh heh. Maybe they were helpful during that time, thus earning the reluctant trust of the Keepers. They do have a dislike of necromancy. Also, the age of the note I quoted may preceed Thief Gold by years, and a Mage was looking it over before refiling it. Azaran may have successfully withstood a confrontation and the Mages let him be. We find Azaran's bones. We don't know how long his bones have been there, and we know rats could have picked them clean, maybe he used the ritual to escape to the Plane of Earth, and left the note for the Mages who were coming to get him.
Haha! Anyway, the continuity error can be dealt with by assuming the texts are separated by years, and not assuming the texts were only recently written when you, the player, find them.
Thanks again, Brethren, I hadn't noted that bit, until today.
The Magpie on 6/3/2008 at 20:53
This is the crucial sentence:
"He has even endeavored to recruit others on a crusade to recover The Book of Ash."
We typically take this to mean that Azaran has started mustering men in preparations for his crusade.
Here's one stretchy interpretation. Maybe the crusade in question is, at the time of writing, a fait accompli - it has already happened when the Archmage pens his note. Or he means that during Azaran's one-man crusade for the Book, he reportedly has tried to gather supporters and/or disciples for his cause or his person.
I know I'm picking nits here, and Corino's following sentence, "The Book of Ash must remain a thing of the past" doesn't seem to leave much leeway. What do you think?
--
L.
jtr7 on 6/3/2008 at 21:02
So, a variation of "He had even endeavored..." or a statement about how he has shown passionate interest and determination in the past, so how far will he go now that he's got it?
This, too, shows how a change in the perceived timleine has its rewards.
And I always thought the cryptic nature of this line:
"Blacken thy heart, or face the prisoners of flesh."
...was a wink to the player as Garrett, but can be taken in several ways, of course. If Garrett had truly blackened his heart, didn't care about anything, and ignored Karras and Viktoria and the Keepers, never discovering the world-ending scheme, he would never have faced the Mechanist's Masked Slaves with their imprisoned flesh, who would then end Garrett's existence.:cheeky:
nicked on 7/3/2008 at 08:42
er... I think that's referring to the fact that if you read the Book of Ash, you accidentally summon 2 zombies (prisoners of flesh). I think it's a pretty neat subtle way of saying Garrett's a good guy underneath.
jtr7 on 7/3/2008 at 19:47
Absolutely, and my comment accounts for that.;)
So let's see...if Azaran is correct that the some-one or some-thing is imprisoned in flesh, and they are angry and homicidal, how are they getting caged in the flesh, why do they crave brains, and are they controlled by whatever imprisoned them?
The Magpie on 11/3/2008 at 22:54
Quote Posted by Solabusca
I'll also suggest that there is a tie-in to Lovecraftian elements in the Book of Ash - or at least to Powers That Should Not Be Messed With - it's obviously an evil old book/grimoire.
Books of spells and magic are
supposed to be evil, according to real world history. But the Book of Ash could at the very least be sharing something with the Necronomicon (or, rather, certain editions of it) in that it's apparently a case of anthropodermic bibliopegy. Or is it?
Quote Posted by jtr7
So let's see...if Azaran is correct that the some-one or some-thing is im
prisoned in flesh, and they are angry and homicidal, how are they getting caged in the flesh, why do they crave brains, and are they controlled by whatever imprisoned them?
Let's see.
M11bckgd:"...A great evil magic hath befallen us, and we battle with demon-kind on all sides. Our own fallen brethren rise from death and turn on us, cold light aflame in their eyes. Our mighty doors availed us naught, for the assault was from within."
This passage, first and foremost, was actually what made me connect the Trickster to necromancy all those years ago, because I interpreted "demon-kind" as his chaotic beasts. Now, after hearing of Balmoraal, and seeing other interpretations, I've scrapped my initial hypothesis.
I don't even know if it refers to zombies or to other forms of undead. There is of course still the possibility of extraplanar spirits possessing dead human bodies, (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1710711#post1710711) as I outlined some posts ago, but the imprisonment theory is kind of interesting, too - and it could partly explain the damned, uh, longevity of the zombies.
So if that's the case, a summoning ritual or spell would probably be required in order to encase the spirits within this, ah, immortal coil.
2. Why do they crave brains?Do they, now?
Well, maybe they're compelled to. Like Billy:
(
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GLeXUh-za_E)
The Haunts, OTOH, seem to wish for some kind of BBQ. And Fire is placed on the same column as Earth. Hmm.
3. Are they controlled by whatever imprisoned them?Yeah, I guess the couple in the Spire would be under some kind of control, at least. But the ones in mines, graveyards, and other haunts? Doubtfully.
--
L.
jtr7 on 11/3/2008 at 23:23
In TDS there are these joke AI broadcasts. I don't know if they are heard in-game, as I had never let the Shaman spawn zombies:
A Pagan and a Pagan Shaman
ps2_fini_zombie1: "Help! Zombies be try to eat my brain!"
p3_fini_zombie1: "Help! Zombies be try to eat my brain!"
Servants
s3_fini_zombie1: "It's the undead! They want my brain!"
s5_fini_zombie1: "Don't let it eat my brain!"
Maids
m3_fini_zombie1: "It's the undead! They want my brain!"
m5_fini_zombie1: "Don't let it eat my brain!"
Commoners
c3_fini_zombie1: "It's the undead! They want my brain!"
c5_fini_zombie1: "Don't let it eat my brain!"
