The Magpie on 12/3/2008 at 02:23
Heh. Kind of spurious, I'll have to say, but still entertaining. ;)
And this is Old Hat to be sure, but it also deserves mentioning:
(
http://crazy.codetroop.com/randimg/imgs/braaains%21.jpg) Zombie_Classified
Incidently, it seems that the culinary preference of the undead for central nervous system organs in particular stems from Return Of The Living Dead (1985). How these memes spread...
--
L.
jtr7 on 12/3/2008 at 02:32
Hahaha!
Personally, I prefer the idea that they just hate the living, have the purpose of being another plague on the living, and the entire point of their existence is not only to torture the soul trapped within, but to simply kill--sometimes inadvertantly creating more of themselves. It seems they are much better at just killing, than creating more undead. It also seems that what creates them comes from an external source, not something they carry, like a contagion of physical or elemental kind. I'd rather believe they just are trying to injure the living until the living has died, and hunger has nothing to do with it. Unless we are talking a "hunger" to kill.
The Magpie on 12/3/2008 at 03:04
Yes.
I don't see the Thief zombies being particularly cannibalistic or hungry. Or they certainly would have feasted upon the burricks a lot more often.
By the way, do the zombies attack burricks by default, or would they need to be gassed first?
Risking that this thread will be merged with the (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116374) Who created undead? thread, I'd say that undead creation is beyond the zombies and the haunts. Maybe the apparitions would be powerful enough, but I don't see how.
Speaking of which, we agree that the apparitions are former Hammer priests? What do you make of the peculiar transformation of their missile? Is it a different spell? (I'd say that'd be unlikely.) Is it a different power being tapped into? What?
--
L.
jtr7 on 12/3/2008 at 03:33
I don't know if the zombies attack burricks on sight, or not, but I tend not to think so. I've had the opportunity to get the spider to attack a burrick, but haven't pitted other AI together.
Thank you, Larris. I just had a brainstorm. Whether anyone agrees or not, I had fun thinking about this:
Borrowing from the Catholic church, since they were clearly a major inspiration, I speculate the Hammer apparitions are in a kind of Purgatory, where they are made to be guardians of the territory Garrett finds them in. It's a community service for some unrepented-of sin until they've made up for their harbored corruption, and are accepted as pure enough to move on. If we saw them attacking the innocent, or found corpses around their haunting grounds to suggest they attacked the living indiscriminantly, then I'd change my opinion very quickly. If they were plain evil, I'd suggest they were condemned to their existence for buggery, or the like.
In my experience, they take too many flashbombs or holy water arrows to kill, which could suggest (outside game-mechanics) that they are not that evil. One might say it's because they are extra evil, but that doesn't work for me.
So then, I think the skull projectiles are signs that they are there to dispense death to intruders.
The Library apparition, Giles, has an agenda of rage, while Lorna's is about sorrow and justice, and they are likely both being temporarily punished for their adultery, while having the primary goal of bringing the murderous Ashton to justice. Giles committed adultery with a married woman and promised Lorna that Ashton would never hit her again. It makes sense that he is dispensing death.
Solabusca on 12/3/2008 at 07:29
First things first - the Brains! video was quite nifty; I've always loved the song - it's by Voltaire, off of Boo Hoo... but I've loved his stuff since The Devil's Bris.
Second - the 'brain-eating' thing. Zombies from the Romero flicks (the flesh-eating dead) seem to be the primary inspiration for Thief - as proof I offer two examples:
* the cutscene for THC has, at around the 0:54 mark (when Garrett is referring to 'rumours about rampaging zombies') the image shows a zombie happily chewing away on what appears to be a human arm.
* The guards outside the Abysmal Gale discuss the fact that zombies 'bite', and that, as in NotLD, it seems that if you're bitten, you will become one of them.
Oh, as an aside - if memory serves, the zombies enthusiastically attack burricks with no qualms.
Third - some theories about undead - all dealing with Dark/Death magic force.
Zombies and other unintelligent undead: I'd suggest Zombies are not animated by spirits per se, but rather are soulless corpses reduced to base primal instinct - attack the living, and feed. Basically, Dark energy infuses the body and brain and 'jump-starts' the corpse.
This would explain why corpses in graveyards, crypts and mine-shafts can be animated without the presence of a necromancer. It would also explain the 'contagious' nature of zombies.
Haunts: Haunts are an interesting case - supposedly created by the desecration of a Hammerite tomb. Perhaps again animated by Dark energy, with the distinct possibility of an animating spirit guiding the Haunt - especially because the Haunt seems more intelligent than Zack.
Apparitions: I'd suggest they're created when Dark forces gather - either by being blasted by Dark energy (as I suspect the Apparitions and Haunts in the Old Quarter were created - the Eye unleashed a vast wave of necromantic energy and killed/turned those Hammerite brethern that were near enough to succumb to it), or by being inundated with 'dark energy' (ie, it gathers wherever evil, tragedy and suffering are found in abundance - those that suffer it and those that perpetrate it are most likely to become ghosts/apparitions!). I'd suggest that it is, exactly as has been posited, the soul, or a portion thereof, trapped in between this plane of existence and the afterlife.
Necromancers and the Dark energy: I've suggested elsewhere that dark magic gathers in places that are likely to attract it - much like the elemental forces create crystals where elemental forces are likely to coalesce.
Necromancers seem to practice the art of focusing this energy - as the Hand mages each seem to master one of the elemental forces (earth, wind, fire, water), Necromancers seem to study the Dark.
This could lead to a side-theory of dark magic energy as radiation/radioactivity - metaphysical fallout, if you will.
But that's just theory, inspired in part by depictions of necromancy and it's source energy in WFRP, D&D and other role-playing games - it's poorly explained right now, because I'm running on no sleep for the last 30 hours, and had a major test tonight; perhaps I'll come back to it later. I know I've explored and expanded on this theory in past here.
.j.
jtr7 on 12/3/2008 at 07:38
Thank you thank you.
So--after you've hopefully rested up and aren't running on fumes after cramming for a test to the point of putting your brains in a state of unlife--how would you dissect Azaran's last note?
I struggled with the words in my last post, and just stopped trying, in favor of getting the general ideas out that were only occurring to me as I typed, so I omitted the favored idea that the beliefs of the characters influenced what happened to their souls after death. I wrote the ideas down from their own possible notions of life, death, afterlife, sin, judgment, etc.
The Magi from the East!
The Magpie on 13/3/2008 at 04:23
Hi, Jeremy. Hope you feel rested and well.
Quote Posted by Solabusca
First things first - the Brains! video was quite nifty; I've always loved the song - it's by Voltaire, off of Boo Hoo... but I've loved his stuff since The Devil's Bris.
I gather that Voltaire wrote the track
for this episode of the amazing Cartoon Network series The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. It's not the only song of his appearing there, either.
Quote Posted by Solabusca
...As proof I offer two examples:
* the cutscene for THC has, at around the 0:54 mark (when Garrett is referring to 'rumours about rampaging zombies') the image shows a zombie happily chewing away on what appears to be a human arm.
* The guards outside the Abysmal Gale discuss the fact that zombies 'bite', and that, as in NotLD, it seems that if you're bitten, you will become one of them.
Well spotted - I have little information about TDS, but the cutscene is good enough. I'll take your word for the general friendly disposition of the zombies, too. However... there are too many counter-arguments for the contagion of undeath for me to accept point two as much more reliable than the hearsay surrounding the different, light-stealing moon over the Barricades.
Quote Posted by Solabusca
Third - some theories about undead - all dealing with Dark/Death magic force.
Zombies and other unintelligent undead: I'd suggest Zombies are not animated by spirits per se, but rather are soulless corpses reduced to base primal instinct - attack the living, and feed. Basically, Dark energy infuses the body and brain and 'jump-starts' the corpse.
This would explain why corpses in graveyards, crypts and mine-shafts can be animated without the presence of a necromancer. It would also explain the 'contagious' nature of zombies.
Not bad at all. I agree that these need explanations. OTOH, I have trouble with this statement:
"soulless corpses reduced to base primal instinct - attack the living, and feed." What it lacks is will and direction. The primal instinct doesn't cut it for me. Why are the undead malignant by default? Because of Dark/Death opposing Light/Life? (Note: We should do something about that symmetry, as we have only three circles available.) Just like Water opposes Fire? Hmm. Thinking about it, it
could work, but like Jason mentioned, Azaran and the BoA complicate matters by mentioning the "prisoners of flesh."
Quote Posted by Solabusca
Haunts: Haunts are an interesting case - supposedly created by the desecration of a Hammerite tomb. Perhaps again animated by Dark energy, with the distinct possibility of an animating spirit guiding the Haunt - especially because the Haunt seems more intelligent than Zack.
I know you've seen this before, but just as a reminder.
murhau1:"Now I must ask thee for one last thing. These haunts who
inhabit the bodies of my brethren - they must all be killed."
I'm reasonably sure that in RTC, the locked-in defenders weren't defeated by mere zombies, and there were no signs of large-scale desecrations in the graveyard. And TBH I once again have trouble with the TDS explanation, which e.g. explains nothing regarding the Torc guardians.
Quote Posted by Solabusca
Apparitions:I'd suggest that it is, exactly as has been posited, the soul, or a portion thereof, trapped in between this plane of existence and the afterlife.
Is Brother Murus an apparition who happens to be friendly, then, or something altogether different? What decides the disposition of an undead entity?
Because of this uncertainty, and the transformation of the hammer missiles into craniums, I think the original soul inhabiting the apparition's body doesn't enter the equation at all here.
Quote Posted by Solabusca
Necromancers and the Dark energy: I've suggested elsewhere that dark magic gathers in places that are likely to attract it - much like the elemental forces create crystals where elemental forces are likely to coalesce.
Necromancers seem to practice the art of focusing this energy - as the Hand mages each seem to master one of the elemental forces (earth, wind, fire, water), Necromancers seem to study the Dark.
This could lead to a side-theory of dark magic energy as radiation/radioactivity - metaphysical fallout, if you will.
I like that analogy a lot.
We have small inklings of how the afterlife is laid out in the Thief universe. Some (Hammers) are seemingly denied rest because their graves are not consecrated properly. And Brother Murus certainly has an awful lot of unfinished business before his soul can be free. But I'm not sure whether the Necromancers study the Dark exclusively, or if they may combine it with the other disciplines and elements. After all, they are renegades from the Brotherhood, and do what they taffing well like.
So. From where do the Hammer priests draw their magic, anyway? Light? Really? And the Pagans, if they can cast spells at all... Dark? Life? I'd possibly suggest Dark under the reign of the Trickster and Life under V. Because I scarcely need to remind my esteemed colleague of who initiated the original Dark Project, right? ;)
--
L.
Solabusca on 13/3/2008 at 08:36
Quote Posted by The Magpie
Hi, Jeremy. Hope you feel rested and well.
Another bout of insomnia, actually... but that allows me to incoherently answer your post!
Quote:
I gather that Voltaire wrote the track
for this episode of the amazing Cartoon Network series The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. It's not the only song of his appearing there, either.
That's correct - it was written for that episode. Voltaire wears a lot of hats: singer/songwriter, musician, animator, comic artist, professor...
Quote:
I know you've seen this before, but just as a reminder.
murhau1:"Now I must ask thee for one last thing. These haunts who
inhabit the bodies of my brethren - they must all be killed."
I'm not sure if that's just Murus citing the Hammer party line - that dark Trickster spirits inhabit the Haunts. Which doesn't really explain the apparitions.
Quote:
I'm reasonably sure that in RTC, the locked-in defenders weren't defeated by mere zombies, and there were no signs of large-scale desecrations in the graveyard. And TBH I once again have trouble with the TDS explanation, which e.g. explains nothing regarding the Torc guardians.
Well, the torc guardians seem part and parcel, to my thinking, of what happened in the wake of the Cataclysm.
Here's what I've been able to piece together. After recovering the eye, some Hammerites decided to see if they could 'use it against their enemies'. Not realizing the Eye had it's own malicious sentience, they started playing with it; the Eye unleashed a vast wave of necromantic energy, killing those Hammers near enough (and turning them into Haunts and Apparations); as a secondary effect, the necromantic energy wave subsequently either caused some inhabitants of the Walled Section to become zombies, or animated nearby corpses. I'd suggest that the Torc guardians were buried Hammerites that were subsequently animated by the residual energy (or 'fallout').
After the initial wave, all hell breaks loose. Those killed by the Haunts reanimate as zombies (not because of the Haunts, but because of the lingering necromantic energy.)
Quote:
Is Brother Murus an apparition who happens to be friendly, then, or something altogether different? What decides the disposition of an undead entity?
I'd suggest that Murus isn't the same kind of undead spirit as a necromantically created Apparation. We have a few encounters with non-hostile ghosts - Murus, the pagans in Trail of Blood, Lauryl in TDS - so I'd suggest that they're the 'untainted' souls of the dead; Apparitions, on the other hand, are twisted, corrupted spirits (or spiritual echoes).
Similarly, the Pirate captains ghost may be one somewhat tainted by 'dark' energy (if like attracts like, and dark energy is drawn to death and decay the way Air is drawn to high rooftops, or water elemental energy is drawn to pools, buckets and the like). The librarian, too, may be the classic 'angry ghost'.
Quote:
Because of this uncertainty, and the transformation of the hammer missiles into craniums, I think the original soul inhabiting the apparition's body doesn't enter the equation at all here.
Well, of the undead spirits we encounter canonically, only the Apparitions and the Librarian ghost use magic.
Quote:
So. From where do the Hammer priests draw their magic, anyway? Light? Really? And the Pagans, if they can cast spells at all... Dark? Life? I'd possibly suggest Dark under the reign of the Trickster and Life under V. Because I scarcely need to remind my esteemed colleague of who initiated the original Dark Project, right? ;)
I'd suggest that the Trickster, as a god, can probably make use of all the forces. He certainly channels them all in his ritual. But I'd suggest that his followers (barring the one using a Necromancer's wand in TDS) are all using the Green/Life/Borning magic as their primary tool - after all, the Trickster inhabits the 'greens-infested maw'.
The only thing linking the Trickster to necromancy is Hammer propaganda. No zombies roam the Maw, no evil spirits are found there. The pagan shamans seem more interested in making things grow, and shaping living things to suit their needs. Blood sacrifice can tie into life magic. (I'm reminded of the Verbena tradition in the old Mage: The Ascencion RPG from White Wolf).
The only in-game example of a Pagan Shaman using necromancy is the aforementioned one in TDS; he's in the sewers, using a magic wand to animate the dead in the nearby Hammer graveyard; I'd suggest that it's akin to the Hammerites using the Eye - basically, making use of a very distasteful weapon to hurt your enemies. The wand itself is the clue for me here - it's called the Necromancer's Wand, suggesting it's a tool the Shaman has found to use, not one that would normally be in his arsenal.
.j.
Vasmarok on 13/3/2008 at 20:27
Quote Posted by The Magpie
This is the crucial sentence:
"He has even endeavored to recruit others on a crusade to recover The Book of Ash."
We typically take this to mean that Azaran has started mustering men in preparations for his crusade.
Here's one stretchy interpretation. Maybe the crusade in question is, at the time of writing, a
fait accompli - it has already happened when the Archmage pens his note. Or he means that during Azaran's one-man crusade for the Book, he reportedly has tried to gather supporters and/or disciples for his cause or his person.
I know I'm picking nits here, and Corino's following sentence, "The Book of Ash must remain a thing of the past" doesn't seem to leave much leeway. What do you think?
--
L.
I am probably the least knowledgable in this matter, but my interpretation is that Corino's message was really setting up the mission that was originally designed for T2: The destruction of the Book of Ash. Sentences like "The Book of Ash must remain a thing of the past" and "It is the decision of the Inner Circle that greater measures be taken to correct this matter." would refer to this. In this respect the sentence "He has even endeavored to recruit others on a crusade to recover The Book of Ash." would refer to other mages who would have been the necromancers in the T2 mission. Later the designers might have scratched this mission and put Azaran's note in T2. With this turn, there is only one necromancer, Azaran. I agree, he might have recovered the Book of Ash long time ago, but the mages did not know about it. Of course, all of this is just speculation.
jtr7 on 13/3/2008 at 20:33
Agreed.
