TTK12G3 on 1/10/2013 at 21:34
If you just defaulted to states' rights and allowed rampant feudalism, this would not have happened.
CCCToad on 1/10/2013 at 23:48
Quote Posted by dethtoll
It's fucking shocking that we've had two shutdowns in twenty years and both involved the GOP holding America hostage.
And once again Dethtoll demonstrates his ability to parrot talking points...literally word for word in this instance.
CCCToad on 1/10/2013 at 23:49
Quote Posted by Nicker
My impression, as a gullible and misinformed Canadian, was that this opposition was a Tea-bagger initiative and that the GOP was being dragged along reluctantly. I thought the GOP would try to spin it as a game attempt to quash the healthcare bill but let it quietly pass anyway, getting the best of both worlds.
How did they get pushed to the edge?
Basically, the situation stands as this. The House submitted a funding bill that includes a 1-year delay for Obamacare and strips Congress (including staffers) of the subsidies they get for healthcare, forcing them into the same plan as everyone else.
Neither side is willing to give an inch over those two proposals, and would rather shut down the government that disavow their "let them eat cake" attitude.
Renzatic on 2/10/2013 at 00:07
Quote Posted by CCCToad
And once again Dethtoll demonstrates his ability to parrot talking points...literally word for word in this instance.
It's pretty much the truth, though. Even McCain has had his moment of eyerolling over it, saying something along the lines of "it didn't work before, and it's not gonna work now". All it'll achieve is a 5 year dent in the Republican party's reputation among the voting public.
demagogue on 2/10/2013 at 00:35
I instinctively lean center-right, but as it is now the Democrats pretty much carry that position anymore. Really sad how the GOP keeps pulling itself down. There's something fundamentally broken about it or something, and it apparently never misses a chance to self-destruct. I don't think it's good for a democracy to have a party so derailed. Even when you don't agree with a party, you want a strong opposition that's rational & knows how to play the game.
I'd like to say this might be a final straw to pull it back to reality--that's what tanked the Contract with America Reps in '95 and put Clinton back in the white house--but I suspect general opinion is it won't, and they'll stay irrational as ever, as long as the right wing media-fed Tea Party train keeps rolling.
Renzatic on 2/10/2013 at 01:01
Quote Posted by demagogue
I'd like to say this might be a final straw to pull it back to reality--that's what tanked the Contract with America Reps in '95 and put Clinton back in the white house--but I suspect general opinion is it won't, and they'll stay irrational as ever, as long as the right wing media-fed Tea Party train keeps rolling.
The strange thing about the Republicans right now is that it's currently two parties that share the same name. You have the McCain Republicans, the relatively sane center-right corporatists we've seen around for years and years, and the Ted Cruz Republicans, also known as the Tea Party, who are practically the source of everything negative we hear about the Republicans in general. In the midst of all this, you have Boehner, who's trying to work both sides to prevent the "Republican brand" from deflating under the pressure put on it by the Tea Party while attempting to save his own ass in the process.
What we're seeing here is an incredibly awkward three party setup uncomfortably jammed into a two party system. You have the Democrats on one side acting as a near unified whole, the classic Republicans in the center, trying everything they can to prevent their crazier half from getting out of hand, but limited by the fact they can't do much without damaging themselves in the process, and the Tea Party, ruining it for everyone.
In short, it's an absolute untenable clusterfuck.
CCCToad on 2/10/2013 at 03:21
Quote Posted by Renzatic
The strange thing about the Republicans right now is that it's currently two parties that share the same name. You have the McCain Republicans, the relatively sane center-right corporatists
So attempting to eavesdrop and record all emails, telephone calls, location data, IM chats, financial transactions, etc is sane? The same group that used God as a justification for starting a war and said that "If you're not with us then you're against us?" The same person, in this case, that attempted to do away with the concept of Habeus Corpus?
I say attempted to monitor everything because while they there's still gaps they are still trying very hard to ensure they have the ability to know everything about everyone at all times.
McCain and his ilk are about as sane as the Stasi or the KGB......little more than ruthless, power hungry, statists although admittedly much more mild-mannered than the Tea Party.
Renzatic on 2/10/2013 at 03:26
Quote Posted by CCCToad
So attempting to eavesdrop and record all emails, telephone calls, location data, IM chats, financial transactions, etc is sane?
Relatively sane compared to the Tea Party. Honestly, since 9/11, you could sum up US politics in its entirety as a perpetually sustained melodramatic reaction to a tragic event. 12 years on, and we're still feeling the effects of that day.
And as much as I hate to say it, PRISM is a solidly bipartisan effort. You can't pin that shit on Republicans alone. They're all involved.
CCCToad on 2/10/2013 at 03:30
Quote Posted by Renzatic
What we're seeing here is an incredibly awkward three party setup uncomfortably jammed into a two party system. You have the Democrats on one side acting as a near unified whole, the classic Republicans in the center, trying everything they can to prevent their crazier half from getting out of hand, but limited by the fact they can't do much without damaging themselves in the process, and the Tea Party, ruining it for everyone.
It's still somewhat of a two-sided issue, but the problem is that the issue isn't split along party lines. You've got factions in both parties who are driven by a desire to aggregate as much power as possible into central authority, and factions in both who are primarily concerned with an almost libertarian focus on civil liberties.
This was illustrated in both the NSA and Syria debates when coalitions formed over those issues that breached party lines. Established, "insider" politicians of both parties wanted to defend both causes whereas a lot of those newer to congress or with strong ties to either civil liberties groups (like the ACLUE) or their constituents came out strongly against.
