demagogue on 27/6/2013 at 14:50
I don't get how you're using the term "procedurally generated" then. The only way I meant it, the geometry of the world is uniquely generated (well, according to a randomized seed, so you could recreate a specific world if you had the seed). Just search the videos of VoxelFarm and you'll see what it looks like. The world itself looks like Skyrim.
Ah, wait, I think I know what you mean. By "fully realized" you mean there's already civilization there and conflict going on? I get it. Yes, VoxelFarm has that covered too. It can also generate entire cities and empires with architecture by civilization-type, and they're working on the object and AI generation... Also it should be very modifiable, like Minecraft, so ideally people will be able to set conditions for either kind of world you and I are talking about, very virgin land that's never seen intelligent life (well, as far as you know at the start anyway...) and fully realized populated worlds full of conflicts, and all sorts of shades of grey between.
catbarf on 27/6/2013 at 16:43
Quote Posted by demagogue
I don't get how you're using the term "procedurally generated" then. The only way I meant it, the geometry of the world is uniquely generated (well, according to a randomized seed, so you could recreate a specific world if you had the seed). Just search the videos of VoxelFarm and you'll see what it looks like. The world itself looks like Skyrim.
Ah, wait, I think I know what you mean. By "fully realized" you mean there's already civilization there and conflict going on? I get it. Yes, VoxelFarm has that covered too. It can also generate entire cities and empires with architecture by civilization-type, and they're working on the object and AI generation... Also it should be very modifiable, like Minecraft, so ideally people will be able to set conditions for either kind of world you and I are talking about, very virgin land that's never seen intelligent life (well, as far as you know at the start anyway...) and fully realized populated worlds full of conflicts, and all sorts of shades of grey between.
No, he means 'fully realized' as in a very detailed, hand-made non-procedural game world packed with flavor and detail, so that every person who plays the game is exploring the same huge map. With the modern Elder Scrolls and Fallout games you're not in a procedurally generated world, but one that is just chock-full of interesting and memorable areas and features. The world in Morrowind feels like a real place, not a series of randomly generated areas cooked up by a procedural generation algorithm.
I'm a fan of procedural generation but it has an enormous tendency to produce generic and uninteresting environments. Games like Minecraft rely very heavily on their mechanics to drive the player, rather than exploration for its own sake.
demagogue on 27/6/2013 at 19:55
I see. The reason I got confused maybe is that the VoxelFram videos really did remind me of the Skyrim world because it was so detailed, and especially the cities still look very organized and crafted for being PG'd. But I see what you're saying too and see the sense in it.
I think the way I'd put it is there are maybe two personalities of survival exploration, the "procedurally-generated & everything is the great unknown every time you play; but you don't feel there's something put there you're really after" kind and the "well-crafted and plotted to be surgically immersive and you want to explore because you know thought was put into what was put out there; but once you've seen it you've seen it" kind, and they cater to different moods. I think I'd like the former, but I'd be interested in the latter too... I think I'd like both styles TBH.
PigLick on 28/6/2013 at 01:16
Basically (I know i do go on about this game) DayZ is probably closest to the kind of game I mean. Now I know it has zombies and all, but its not a horror game. Because of the size of the map (as in it will take you a good 40-60 minutes to get from one side of the map to the other, and thats if you arent exploring and getting sidetracked), and the fact its actually based on a real place, the sense of immersion is huge.
The survival element is the key factor in gameplay. So say you want to get to a certain place (say the northern military barracks) because you know there is a chance of finding a helicopter or plane, you need to plan for it. Do I have enough food and water to make the journey? You will definitely need medical supplies (bandages, painkillers, antibiotics etc) just in case the shit hits the fan. Compass? absolute must, what about hunting gear and matches so you can kill animals and cook meat if you find yourself low on food. Now what if you get there and find a heli but its all busted up? Need tools then so you can repair it.
So you then have to scavenge around the coastal towns to find the gear you need, before you make the long trek through the forests and hills, using actual navigation skills (if you have any). Then add in the multiplayer element, where you could come across another survivor at any moment, having to make some tough decisions. Ok so that guy looting the old factory up on the hill hasnt seen me yet, do I just avoid him and move on, or risk the chance of showing myself and possibly trading some gear, or being shot for my gear?
The gameplay style isnt for the non-patient, but I find it highly addictive, no other game has given me the same experience, the closest I can think of is STALKER.
So yeh thats the kinda thing I was talking about, but with more story and details in the gameworld.
demagogue on 28/6/2013 at 02:39
Well since the original topic has imploded at this point...
DayZ & Stalker kick ass, and the survival exploration element is definitely part of their magic, so I'm on board with everything you just said.
For the record, though, in the concept I was thinking out, there were definite semi-scripted story elements that progressively opened up as you ventured out... I was thinking about it like early Dwarf Fortress. As you dug in, you know eventually you'll reach the river and then the lava river further on, and you know there are migrant & monster waves coming at certain times. But within those boundaries there was procedural generation for the surroundings & a little randomization on exact timing & placement.
My thinking was the same for this, specific story events & areas are crafted and scripted to be revealed as you go out, but where they are exactly varies game to game and the surrounding countryside is generated. The gist is like Dwarf Fortress... You know generally what to prepare for, but not exactly where to go right off or what you'll need, so you still need to plan for the exploration. If places and events, still crafted & scripted, are a little randomized, then you still have to prepare & gear up for it in the ways you were talking about with DayZ, and you get the best of both worlds. Well that was my vision. There are a number of ways you could do it that would all be awesome.
PigLick on 28/6/2013 at 02:52
That does sound interesting. Actually the dayz server I play on, due to the flexible ai + scripting of the arma2 engine, has introduced things like actual helicopters piloted by AI, which will then randomly fly from the ocean over the land and crash somewhere. So you might be wandering around and see a heli fly overhead, you can then follow and track it to see where it crashed, as helicopters always have high end military loot.
Is that the kind of thing you mean with scripted events?
demagogue on 28/6/2013 at 03:26
Well there's the general concept & the specific game I thought out. The general concept, sure, that would count, or like running into the inevitable river in Dwarf Fortress or maybe dungeons in Minecraft (actually not the best example since they still aren't that special; more like the fortresses in the Aether mod for Minecraft if you know it, where they're goal focused, and finding each of them really is special to making progress to your ultimate goal in the aether.)
The specific things I was thinking about were like NPC or event encounters with dialog and nodes in what you don't realize at first, you might see them as randomized, but gradually begin to see is an unfolding plot. There are always two paths you can take here, goal-oriented or procedural, though, with different amounts of mixing and matching. Both approaches to scripted events, truly randomized or advancing plot nodes, could be fun.
PigLick on 28/6/2013 at 04:05
I like the idea, and I think it could even work in a fixed, non-generated world. You could even have like story/event "plugins", where new content can be added and played out like a series of episodes, but the actual world itself doesnt change. Maybe we should have started our own thread :)
demagogue on 28/6/2013 at 04:42
It should all be moved to the "Your Zany Game Ideas" thread if we could do that.
Al_B on 28/6/2013 at 06:17
Good idea - done.
