242 on 25/7/2006 at 10:48
Quote Posted by spix's circlet
The start of the troubles is the start of the story. Before
Eaves, members have made reasons to excuse the Keepers as to why they shouldn't have just told Garrett:
- "You have trouble my friend. Someone who hired Truart to kill you."
- "Yes?"
- "
Take this It's Karras."
Which is basically what the Keeper was saying anyway when he gave him a letter to go listen in on one of Karras' meetings. In other words, it is there you will find the answer. Put it together.
So, we are put into a Mechanist Seminary because it would be a cool level - not because it makes lucid motivation as, say,
The Haunted Cathedral.
Well, I'm not agreed here.
Then why Keepers in the very start of TDP could not tell Garrett that his current main enemy is Trickster, give him some uber-weapon and send him to kill the Woodsie?
I think the Keeper said in the cutscene "Take this" instead of "It's Karrass" is because (story-wise) Keepers must interfere with world as little as possible, they could only slightly push Garrett to true path in critical situations.
z-vap on 25/7/2006 at 15:24
I agree, the Keepers were dodgy in both games.
I like both games better that the other for different reasons.
TDP(G) for the atmosphere: I liked the Halloween/Horror aspect of this one over the Medieval aspect of the second
TMA for the game mechanics: This one was a better engine, it had a better feel for controls, and better graphics.
mrsmr2 on 25/7/2006 at 16:14
Quote Posted by 242
Well, I'm not agreed here.
Then why Keepers in the very start of TDP could not tell Garrett that his current main enemy is Trickster, give him some uber-weapon and send him to kill the Woodsie?
I think the Keeper said in the cutscene "Take this" instead of "It's Karrass" is because (story-wise) Keepers must interfere with world as little as possible, they could only slightly push Garrett to true path in critical situations.
Exactly, he was cynical about them and needed to be influenced so that he could make his own choice.
the_dark_and_clouded on 25/7/2006 at 16:38
Quote:
Orginally Posted by spix's circletWhich is odd considering how much more exhilarative the tension is in Escape and Strange Bedfellows compared to the dullness (and admitted blunder by the developers) of the Casing / Mask duo.
No. The last missions of a game need to be challenging ones that force you to use all your wit and skill in the art of thieving you've (hopefully) accumalated while playing the game up to that point, and prepare you for the "grande finale" in the very last mission. After the difficulties the player has had with RTC (surely one of the hardest missions in the game) the Escape/Bedfellows duo was a bad joke. Both missions are completable in say 3-4 minutes each on Expert (!) difficulty, besides both are quite linear, which means you don't need to have played Thief at all to actually complete them. Just hold the W key down from the beginning 'till the end of the mission (while steering around obstacles and picking up a few minor utensils), no Thief skill required at all. The Maw is even more ridiculous (no challenging opponents, simple run-through mission, strictly linear).
Casing/Masks is a LOT better. You'll be lost in this mission if you don't make heavy use of your thieving skills and tactics (sneaking, looting, BJing, whatever ...). Both missions keep the tension of the game very well, allowing it to culminate in the great showdown at Soulforge (very good mission, despite what some say: very hard, very atmospheric, very time-consuming, a worthy ending of a great game).
To me the last three Thief I missions were sheer disappointment with their unthiefy FPS-style. Thief II had much better mission near the end of the game. Thief I or Thief II? I prefer the later, although Thief I had great missions, too. (RTC is unbeaten in terms of tension, atmosphere and thievy goodness.)
DarthMRN on 25/7/2006 at 17:06
While I agree that Escape, Bedfellows and the Maw were quite a bit easier than RTC, the style in which you suggest one play through these levels sort of deafeat the point of Thief. If you measure the quality of a Thief mission in how easy it is to speedrun through it, I think you missed something.
Playing Thief-style, the first two of these missions were plenty challenging, with very alert enemies, tricky sections wich required lots of timing and strategy, and enough labyrinthe passages to qualify for non-linearity. But the Maw was an utter dissappointment in all of these fields, that I agree with. Only the scare-factor gave that level any real merit.
Casing and Masks had these qualities as well, but by then the "sack-victorian-masion" experience had gotten a bit old, making these levels boring and tedious IMO.
the_dark_and_clouded on 25/7/2006 at 21:58
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthMRNIf you measure the quality of a Thief mission in how easy it is to speedrun through it, I think you missed something.
That's not what I'm doing. When I played through Thief the first time, it took me loads of time to figure out and accomplish some of the earlier missions like THC or RTC. Thus I was disappointed by Escape because all I found myself doing was running away from critter and looking for the path that leads upwards and out of that freakin' mansion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthMRN[...] the style in which you suggest one play through these levels sort of deafeat the point of Thief.
I'm not proposing any style. What I'm talking about is that a good Thief mission needs to force you to scout around and explore, learn more about your environment, keep a path clear for your escape, be discreet, all those things that define a good Thief player. The last three missions don't do this, they're easier to do in a "straight-run-to-the-exit" style of play, and that's what's uncool. I'm not looking at these missions through the looking glass (!) :cheeky: of a certain playing style, I'm judging them by the general feeling I had while playing them without any bias.
themetalian on 25/7/2006 at 23:16
Although I do agree with the last three Thief 1 missions being rather too easy, I actually quite liked them. Bedfellows was quite good for atmosphere, especially the start of that mission, because it was empty and eerie, which increased the tense. The Maw level was good because I liked the zany design of the whole level (what were the game designers taking when making the Maw of Chaos level?).
DarthMRN on 25/7/2006 at 23:20
So your argument is that the level doesn't stop you from speedrunning, and that doing so is easier than doing it the sneaky way, and that is inaproperiate for the final levels of a Thief game?
I can sort of relate to that. But you must remember that you are preaching to the purist choir here. I instinctively disagree when somebody complains about games/levels being too easy when they have played it in an "unpure"/exploiting way.
the_dark_and_clouded on 26/7/2006 at 11:29
Quote:
Orginally Posted by DarthMRNSo your argument is that the level doesn't stop you from speedrunning, and that doing so is easier than doing it the sneaky way, and that is inaproperiate for the final levels of a Thief game?
Yes.
Quote:
Orginally Posted by spix's circletA fundamental flaw in CASE is trying to force the player into one playing style for the whole mission.
I don't agree with this. Half-Life 2 is all about FPS action. Therefore it tries to encourage you to use your guns and shoot down all the enemies you see. Warcraft III is about real-time strategy. Therefore it forces you into building bases, collecting resources and training units. Thief II is a stealth game. So why shouldn't it be allowed to force you into using stealth?
My point is that the Thief missions we're talking about pose absolutely no challenge to your skills, everyone who has once played a Doom game is able to complete them. The last level of a game has to be an ultimate challenge that gives the player the feeling of having accomplished something great after finishing it and the Maw and its predecessing missions failed to do this from my point of view.
Concerning Casing/Masks, most of the things you mentioned I consider minor flaws. Personally, I enjoyed the duo. Granted, they were exhausting, a bit repetitive and wearying, but I liked their "ultimate-mansion-burglar" style. (On a side note: Masks provides a much more satisfying ghosting experience than Bedfellows and a great mission to have fun with the mech beasts, too.) :sly:
mrsmr2 on 2/8/2006 at 12:16
My vote goes to TMA. I played it first so that probably goes a long way towards my decision.
I think the TMA engine is smoother and Garrett just feels more natural to control than in TDP. The textures are better but it's the colours and lovely shading (mostly the outdoor areas) that really make a difference for me.
In TMA the levels are larger, and there are more hidden areas to discover. It's also designed around sneaking about. Due to the large number of undead/creature levels in TDP, I did much less sneaking around in TDP.
The last three missions in TDP take about the same time to complete as the last mission in TMA - they are pretty small.
TDP had a slightly better story throughout although TMA started off superbly by connecting people and events over the first three missions and really creating a living and breathing environment. Unfortunately, it lost that connection over the remaining missions.
TDP was far more scary and atmospheric in places.
TMA's mansion crawls were much better than TDP's (Bafford's and Ramirez's).
I think the games are quite different and while I enjoyed TDP, it's TMA I'm more likely to play through again (no more zombies or camp walking insect beats)
Jason
